Katia
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Post by Katia on Aug 23, 2023 21:52:52 GMT -5
I thin that particularly Face had very varying characterization in the show, so I am not that surprised really. In one episode he was a cool sharp-shooter, in another almost a damsel in distress. We can pick, which might not be a bad thing either. Oh yes. And, I think there would be plenty to dig for below the surface with Face... and I suppose that could easily be up to a writer's interpretation. That's a good point. Perhaps Face was actually the character with the most variety about his personality, although the first things I think of when I think of him are probably his con artistry and his womanizing. So writing him in character seems to me that it should include some of that, unless a writer is trying to make him grow beyond some of that. If the show had lasted 10 years, for example, would Face still be the same at the end of the show as he was in the first season? Did he grow and develop throughout the five seasons? I hate to say this, but I think Face would have to change a bit as he got older... But it is strange how little character he had for a character with so much dark past. But it was supposed to be a family show, so I understand that at that time and given the show-tone, there was not much space to dig very much deep. We have fanfics for that. I think that's the case for all of them, really... Perhaps Face is such a good con artist which is why he doesn't come off as sleazy. Not sure if you've recently watched FAMILY REUNION, but in that episode I think Face may be described as a "con man with integrity" (not quite sure if that is exactly it, but that's the gist of what I remember). I agree that he does seem to have some kind of integrity which makes him not seem sleazy, either as a conman or as a womanizer. But if one of the women that he charms on the show were to ask him about his relationships with other women or how many he has had, would Face tell that woman the truth? Doubtful, although I would like to think that he would somehow be honest, especially if he were really getting into a more serious relationship. However, with Rena in HOT STYLES, he was still being dishonest with her even though they did seem to be getting into a more serious relationship. One thing that makes Face not seem so sleazy to me is that it feels like he really does care about the women that he is womanizing, for the most part. Or maybe I just want to believe that about him. I'm not sure if I feel like he cares about most of them, but I also don't get the impression that he's completely callous about them, either, or necessarily sees them only as commodities. And, the women he goes for are always very attractive, so even if he dumps them, it's not like they don't have many other opportunities out there. And the impression I get from some of them is that they're not necessarily that invested in the relationship, either...
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akin
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Post by akin on Aug 24, 2023 12:39:33 GMT -5
I thin that particularly Face had very varying characterization in the show, so I am not that surprised really. In one episode he was a cool sharp-shooter, in another almost a damsel in distress. We can pick, which might not be a bad thing either. Oh yes. And, I think there would be plenty to dig for below the surface with Face... and I suppose that could easily be up to a writer's interpretation. Or maybe his moods, I have read stories where Face was cool as a cucumber and his whiny self within a few lines and it still worked. That's a good point. Perhaps Face was actually the character with the most variety about his personality, although the first things I think of when I think of him are probably his con artistry and his womanizing. So writing him in character seems to me that it should include some of that, unless a writer is trying to make him grow beyond some of that. If the show had lasted 10 years, for example, would Face still be the same at the end of the show as he was in the first season? Did he grow and develop throughout the five seasons? I hate to say this, but I think Face would have to change a bit as he got older...[/quote] Thinking about it, maybe the fact that Face went from cool sharp shooter to a more of a business guy (conman), Face himself would probably consider this as positive development showing his smarts that allowed him to move into a position where he can more easily avoid physical harm. I am sure he would appreciate that (as any sane person). But it is strange how little character he had for a character with so much dark past. But it was supposed to be a family show, so I understand that at that time and given the show-tone, there was not much space to dig very much deep. We have fanfics for that. I think that's the case for all of them, really... Perhaps Face is such a good con artist which is why he doesn't come off as sleazy. Not sure if you've recently watched FAMILY REUNION, but in that episode I think Face may be described as a "con man with integrity" (not quite sure if that is exactly it, but that's the gist of what I remember). I agree that he does seem to have some kind of integrity which makes him not seem sleazy, either as a conman or as a womanizer. But if one of the women that he charms on the show were to ask him about his relationships with other women or how many he has had, would Face tell that woman the truth? Doubtful, although I would like to think that he would somehow be honest, especially if he were really getting into a more serious relationship. However, with Rena in HOT STYLES, he was still being dishonest with her even though they did seem to be getting into a more serious relationship. One thing that makes Face not seem so sleazy to me is that it feels like he really does care about the women that he is womanizing, for the most part. Or maybe I just want to believe that about him. I'm not sure if I feel like he cares about most of them, but I also don't get the impression that he's completely callous about them, either, or necessarily sees them only as commodities. And, the women he goes for are always very attractive, so even if he dumps them, it's not like they don't have many other opportunities out there. And the impression I get from some of them is that they're not necessarily that invested in the relationship, either... [/quote] I think what makes him come off not as sleazy is to me (from the episodes I had seen so far on my rewatch journey) that the girls know that Face is not a settling down type and mostly they realize this is not a permanent thing. Plus Face really is trying to make them happy, he is charming, bringing gifts, attentive, handsome. They have all the reasons to enjoy themselves if they do not have too high expectations regarding commitment. They were a few cases when his behavior is not ideal (e.g. the Hot Styles) but I usually attribute that to his character variations (selective blindness).
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sidney
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Post by sidney on Aug 24, 2023 18:19:41 GMT -5
Re: Face being sleazy.
Hunkman came off as sleazy. You'd think Murdock would have been able to do a better impression of Face.
I 100% believe that Face cared for all the women. He loves his relationship with them. He loves courting them. He loves everything about them. He loves taking care of their needs and helping their careers. He cares for them all; he cares for all the ones he's met, will meet, haven't met yet or will never meet, etc. He is like a kid in a candy store and everything is his favourite candy.
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akin
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Post by akin on Aug 25, 2023 6:21:06 GMT -5
Re: Face being sleazy. Hunkman came off as sleazy. You'd think Murdock would have been able to do a better impression of Face. I 100% believe that Face cared for all the women. He loves his relationship with them. He loves courting them. He loves everything about them. He loves taking care of their needs and helping their careers. He cares for them all; he cares for all the ones he's met, will meet, haven't met yet or will never meet, etc. He is like a kid in a candy store and everything is his favourite candy. Hunkman I have not seen yet, but this is a kinda cute and fitting description. Plus, he loves being adored by them, probably his way of making them love him. Emotional security is not his strongest point.
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Katia
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Post by Katia on Aug 25, 2023 21:57:12 GMT -5
I thought Hunkman was more awkward than sleazy. Really, his only bad moment was with the woman with the lunch wagon, and that was just dorky, not so much offensive. (And, I thought it was all put-on, because in every other situation, Murdock can be plenty successful with women, and this was just way too over-the-top.)
I have to say, though... sometimes I feel Hannibal almost borders on sleazy.
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sidney
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Post by sidney on Aug 25, 2023 23:26:37 GMT -5
Why do you think Hannibal is sleazy? I don't know if I see sleaze. I do see misogyny. Oh, he is a misogynist in my opinion. I've had lots of arguments about this over the years. I without a doubt believe Hannibal thinks dames should be seen and not heard.
Although the guys certainly participate in scenarios where women were treated as objects, or not equal... And they more often than not exhibit toxic masculinity, I don't know if I feel BA, Face, or Murdock are particularly of the same mindset as Hannibal.
This might be its own thread. It's always quite the conversation.
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sidney
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Post by sidney on Aug 25, 2023 23:30:39 GMT -5
I also think Hannibal is a bully, by the way. Which is ironic considering they save the underdogs all the time. I always think of him making fun of the professor in ATE LAS VEGAS, for example.
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Post by thatkliqkid on Aug 26, 2023 11:44:37 GMT -5
Why do you think Hannibal is sleazy? I don't know if I see sleaze. I do see misogyny. Oh, he is a misogynist in my opinion. I've had lots of arguments about this over the years. I without a doubt believe Hannibal thinks dames should be seen and not heard. Although the guys certainly participate in scenarios where women were treated as objects, or not equal... And they more often than not exhibit toxic masculinity, I don't know if I feel BA, Face, or Murdock are particularly of the same mindset as Hannibal. This might be its own thread. It's always quite the conversation. I think the worst Hannibal moment is when he basically threatens to break that girl's neck in Harder than it looks. "Do you want me to push? Then come along quietly"
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Katia
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Post by Katia on Aug 26, 2023 17:03:01 GMT -5
Hannibal being sleazy-- just the vibe I get when he's shown draped with younger, attractive women. I just get the sense of it being the whole stereotypical works of "older man with a younger woman" rather than getting the sense that there's an age difference because they're two people who were genuinely into each other and decided age was just a number. (This is terribly judgmental of me, but there's also another episode where they meet up with two women and Hannibal goes for one of them, and the one he goes for has been done up in a way that makes her look like you'd find her in a hole-in-the-wall bar. That's not how she acts, but that's how they've made her look, and somehow it didn't surprise me that that might be the "type" Hannibal goes for, whereas with the other three I'd not expect it.)
As far as being a misogynist... I get mixed feelings on this. He's often shown with the younger, attractive women, but only briefly and superficially; often the ones he actually goes for in a significant way are the ones with some substance and guts (Maggie/Mo Sullivan, Annie the fire chief, etc.). He treats Amy and Tawnia pretty well, in my opinion, and not like they're useless/incompetent (okay, Tawnia is iffy because they all treat her as if she annoys them sometimes, but I think that's her character, not that she's a woman).
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amyk
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Post by amyk on Aug 26, 2023 18:00:42 GMT -5
Why do you think Hannibal is sleazy? I don't know if I see sleaze. I do see misogyny. Oh, he is a misogynist in my opinion. I've had lots of arguments about this over the years. I without a doubt believe Hannibal thinks dames should be seen and not heard. Although the guys certainly participate in scenarios where women were treated as objects, or not equal... And they more often than not exhibit toxic masculinity, I don't know if I feel BA, Face, or Murdock are particularly of the same mindset as Hannibal. This might be its own thread. It's always quite the conversation. I think the worst Hannibal moment is when he basically threatens to break that girl's neck in Harder than it looks. "Do you want me to push? Then come along quietly" It was only recently that I ever even had any inclination that is what people believe Hannibal was threatening to do. I guess I didn't take it that way for some reason. Not sure what he meant by "push" but for some reason, I never thought until this came up on this forum recently that Hannibal was threatening to push her and break her neck.
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amyk
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Post by amyk on Aug 26, 2023 18:04:03 GMT -5
Hannibal being sleazy-- just the vibe I get when he's shown draped with younger, attractive women. I just get the sense of it being the whole stereotypical works of "older man with a younger woman" rather than getting the sense that there's an age difference because they're two people who were genuinely into each other and decided age was just a number. (This is terribly judgmental of me, but there's also another episode where they meet up with two women and Hannibal goes for one of them, and the one he goes for has been done up in a way that makes her look like you'd find her in a hole-in-the-wall bar. That's not how she acts, but that's how they've made her look, and somehow it didn't surprise me that that might be the "type" Hannibal goes for, whereas with the other three I'd not expect it.) As far as being a misogynist... I get mixed feelings on this. He's often shown with the younger, attractive women, but only briefly and superficially; often the ones he actually goes for in a significant way are the ones with some substance and guts (Maggie/Mo Sullivan, Annie the fire chief, etc.). He treats Amy and Tawnia pretty well, in my opinion, and not like they're useless/incompetent (okay, Tawnia is iffy because they all treat her as if she annoys them sometimes, but I think that's her character, not that she's a woman). I feel like Hannibal is sleazy when he is with those twins in Rio or wherever he is in WHEEL OF FORTUNE - and probably all the worse because he seems completely unconcerned about Murdock. I think he just wants to live it up with those twins. But I agree that the ones he really cares about seem to be women who are strong and intelligent.
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Katia
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Post by Katia on Aug 26, 2023 19:47:59 GMT -5
It was only recently that I ever even had any inclination that is what people believe Hannibal was threatening to do. I guess I didn't take it that way for some reason. Not sure what he meant by "push" but for some reason, I never thought until this came up on this forum recently that Hannibal was threatening to push her and break her neck. I need to find this episode again and watch that part so I remember exactly how it goes down, so I can form an opinion on it... I feel like Hannibal is sleazy when he is with those twins in Rio or wherever he is in WHEEL OF FORTUNE - and probably all the worse because he seems completely unconcerned about Murdock. I think he just wants to live it up with those twins. But I agree that the ones he really cares about seem to be women who are strong and intelligent. That one is the absolute worst. I mean, I know why they had him be that way, but if they couldn't have him in the episode I'd still rather they figured something else out (he was having his appendix out, he was on vacation but they couldn't reach him, etc.). (Especially since IMO, it's not in-character for Hannibal...)
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akin
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Post by akin on Aug 27, 2023 15:32:22 GMT -5
It was only recently that I ever even had any inclination that is what people believe Hannibal was threatening to do. I guess I didn't take it that way for some reason. Not sure what he meant by "push" but for some reason, I never thought until this came up on this forum recently that Hannibal was threatening to push her and break her neck. I need to find this episode again and watch that part so I remember exactly how it goes down, so I can form an opinion on it... I feel like Hannibal is sleazy when he is with those twins in Rio or wherever he is in WHEEL OF FORTUNE - and probably all the worse because he seems completely unconcerned about Murdock. I think he just wants to live it up with those twins. But I agree that the ones he really cares about seem to be women who are strong and intelligent. That one is the absolute worst. I mean, I know why they had him be that way, but if they couldn't have him in the episode I'd still rather they figured something else out (he was having his appendix out, he was on vacation but they couldn't reach him, etc.). (Especially since IMO, it's not in-character for Hannibal...) Frankly, I think the writers didn't write the episodes when somebody couldn't participate in general very well. I just watched today the episode where BA and Murdock were taken into prison and Hannibal was trying to save them while Face was handling things (with two beautiful women hanging off of him). I mean I cannot believe that if Face knew that two members of the team were in problems, he wouldn't come running. The writers sometimes really sucked in some aspects... Hannibal. Hmmm I sometimes have a feeling that Hannibal/GP is at happiest with his boys, from what was said about them treating the actress playing Amy, it had a vibe of all-boys-club, so maybe that filtered a bit onto the screen. I, as a super feminist woman, should be really annoyed, but somehow I take it that this is the way things were. BUT there were actually some episodes where I was really positively surprised just how strong female vibes were also in the show, so I think it is mostly related to quality of writing.
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Post by Pico Bob on Aug 27, 2023 20:13:49 GMT -5
I also think Hannibal is a bully, by the way. Which is ironic considering they save the underdogs all the time. I always think of him making fun of the professor in ATE LAS VEGAS, for example. At least the girls called Hannibal out for the unacceptable body shaming. Murdock and BA also needlessly bullied or disrespected ordinary people at times. I regret this aspect of the show. Sad to say it but those AI scripts are better than a number of season 3 and 5 episodes.
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amyk
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Post by amyk on Aug 28, 2023 18:01:55 GMT -5
I think it would have been better if he had been hospitalized and still making a plan (even though they would have had to have him phone it in apparently) or, as you mentioned, gone somewhere that he could not be reached. It's not like everyone had cell phones back then. They could have had him off mountain climbing because he wanted to improve his climbing and rappelling skills or something like that. Shoot, they could even have had him off fishing somewhere like Mr. Beller was in BELLY IN THE BEAST and be unreachable.
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